The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:33:03
Kevin Eikenberry
So often on the Remarkable Leadership podcast, we talk about skills, which makes sense. We all want to know the skills we need to get better and more effective at the work that we're doing. And skills alone are not enough. In this episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, we're going to talk about something that comes before skills. We're going to talk about our beliefs and how our beliefs might get in our way of becoming as effective as leaders as we want and need to be in any given moment.

00:00:33:05 - 00:00:47:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.

00:00:47:12 - 00:01:10:11
Kevin Eikenberry
When we talk about leadership and leadership development, we often talk about the skills that are needed. And skills, of course, are important. But before the skills become something important and not talked about nearly enough. Our beliefs, you see, if our beliefs don't match the skills we're learning, we are not going to do those new behaviors. And so that's what we're going to talk about today.

00:01:10:12 - 00:01:34:07
Kevin Eikenberry
We can talk about our beliefs, specifically the beliefs that can hold us back from becoming the leader that we want to become. And more importantly, perhaps, how we can change those beliefs. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders like you grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations and the world.

00:01:34:08 - 00:01:55:10
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast, you could join us in the future for live access on your favorite social media platforms. You can learn all about when those live episodes are happening, and therefore how you can interact with us and join us and see them sooner by joining our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. Just two of the platforms where we live stream these.

00:01:55:13 - 00:02:23:14
Kevin Eikenberry
You can go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to get all the scoop and join us in the future. Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book for Flexible Leadership. Navigate uncertainty and Lead with confidence. It's time to recognize and realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach in a world more complex and uncertain than ever.

00:02:23:16 - 00:02:47:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Leaders need a new perspective and a new set of tools to create great results for their organizations and team members. And that's what flexible leadership provides you. You can learn more and order your copy now by going to remarkable podcast.com/flexible. And having said that let me bring in my guest. And there she is. And let me introduce her.

00:02:47:14 - 00:03:12:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And then we're going to dive in. My guest today is Muriel Wilkins. She is the founder and CEO of Purvis Partners, a sought after C-suite advisor and executive coach with a 20 year track record of helping senior leaders take their performance to the next level. She's the author of Leadership Unblocked Breakthrough The Beliefs That Limit Your Potential, and the Cohort.

00:03:12:11 - 00:03:38:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Author of Own the Room Discover Your Signature Voice to master your Leadership Presence. Bill is the host of the Harvard Business Review Reviews podcast Coaching Real Leaders, where she coaches real leaders. It is consistently ranked as the top ten podcast in Apple's management category. And now she's on the other side of the mic as my guest. And Muriel, welcome.

00:03:38:16 - 00:03:42:10
Muriel Wilkins
Thank you Kevin, very much. Appreciate being here.

00:03:42:11 - 00:04:05:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So I'm guests. I'm so glad to have you. So I'm guessing I don't know when you were eight year old Muriel. You weren't expecting to have a 20 year track record of helping senior executives like, tell us a little bit about how you end up doing this work. I mean, I don't want the whole life story of Muriel.

00:04:05:15 - 00:04:12:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, but I think it's helpful to give us context. If it goes too long, I'll give you a little signal.

00:04:12:09 - 00:04:14:11
Muriel Wilkins
All right. Okay. Gotcha.

00:04:14:13 - 00:04:21:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Gotcha. I think it's helpful to have a little bit of a sense of sort of like who you are and how you got here as we dive into this conversation.

00:04:21:08 - 00:04:40:20
Muriel Wilkins
Absolutely. Thank you for asking. No. Certainly not when I was eight years old and not even when I was 28 years old, to be honest. When I was 28 years old, I was fresh out of business school, ready to conquer the world. And my aspirations had been to be in the C-suite one day, to be a chief marketing officer or chief strategy officer.

00:04:40:22 - 00:05:01:03
Muriel Wilkins
And I was well on my way to doing that. Advancing very quickly in my career and progressing and, quite frankly, had not paid much attention to leadership courses when I was in business school. But then, lo and behold, I found myself in my first senior executive role reporting to the CEO. And man, had I wished I had paid more attention.

00:05:01:05 - 00:05:36:12
Muriel Wilkins
Because while I was getting the business results and I was driving to all of the metrics that we were trying to achieve, I was very much, frustrated along the process. And I was bumping into some walls, and I and I sought out to work with an executive coach. This was a little over 20 years ago, and I couldn't find one at the time who had the expertise in leadership development, but also spoke my language from a business perspective, who understood when I talked about ROI and PNL and KPIs and all the things.

00:05:36:12 - 00:05:55:05
Muriel Wilkins
They got it. And so one of my mentors who also knew that actually since the time I was a I didn't want to have my own business, said, well, you have found the problem. Why don't you go solve a need by starting this type of business? And that's what I did. And that was a little over 20 years ago and I've never looked back.

00:05:55:07 - 00:06:15:13
Kevin Eikenberry
There you go. So we are talking with someone who's been there and done that and is now helping us do the same thing. And one of the ways she's expanding that reach us through this book. So, the book is called Leadership Unblocked Breakthrough The Beliefs that Limit Your Potential. And at some level, I think I answered this question in my intro, and the title does the same.

00:06:15:15 - 00:06:19:09
Kevin Eikenberry
But what's the big idea of the book?

00:06:19:13 - 00:06:39:13
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah. So the big idea, and I do think you did a phenomenal job, sharing it in the intro. The big idea here is that look, we tend to be a very action biased, society. I think a lot of high achievers, myself included, got our success by moving to action pretty quickly, changing what it is that we do.

00:06:39:15 - 00:07:05:22
Muriel Wilkins
What I have found through my coaching, and it took me some time to recognize this, is that while we can change what we do and we can move the actions around, whether it's on an individual level, team level, organizational level, fundamentally it's not sustainable if those actions are not aligned with mindset. And so I started becoming curious about, well, what is the type of mindset that can propel you to actually have sustainable change in action?

00:07:05:22 - 00:07:26:03
Muriel Wilkins
And what are the ones, even more critically, that get in the way so that we know to course correct them when need be? And it was a hypothesis. I looked across 300 of my clients, that I had coach a subset of the overall universe of of folks who had been coached by Muriel with, curiosity around. Were there some commonalities and some of the beliefs that got in their ways?

00:07:26:03 - 00:07:36:10
Muriel Wilkins
And lo and behold, there were seven that surfaced to the top. And so that's what I, the premise of the book is about and, not only what the beliefs are, but how you can move through them.

00:07:36:12 - 00:08:00:23
Kevin Eikenberry
The seven big blocking beliefs. If you want to get to all of those in a minute. I want to comment. I'm going to ask what about the word belief in a second? But before we do that, you you immediately use the word mindset, which I use all the time. I mean, a lot of people talk about mindset, but we talk about mindset, skill set habits, set, and if they're not and if the first two are in alignment, as I said in the open, we get to a shot.

00:08:01:01 - 00:08:01:11
Muriel Wilkins
That's right.

00:08:01:17 - 00:08:08:15
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a big enough challenge to get from skills to habit. But if we don't, if we don't get the first two right, there's no way we get to the third one.

00:08:08:17 - 00:08:28:01
Muriel Wilkins
That's right. Kevin. And and look, you know, I do not sit here at any time and say, oh, my gosh, I've come up with this brand new idea. I mean, this has been in the ether for eons. I think what I find surprising, and you mentioned it to in terms of your book, right, is how little it's talked about in the universe that I deal with, which is leaders, right?

00:08:28:04 - 00:08:52:15
Muriel Wilkins
We see it in personal development. We see in spiritual development, we see it in fitness development. We see it in parenting and relationships. But for some reason, I haven't found it, part of the vernacular in the work that it takes to be an effective leader. And I think that it creates a real detriment in developing leader if we're not bringing this into the equation as well.

00:08:52:17 - 00:09:27:09
Kevin Eikenberry
I agree 100%. So I find, maybe it's because I'm a lover of words, and a lot of times I like to better understand a word. And the word of the word belief is a word we've all known since we were young. Yeah. And yet I think we have to step back. You take like, two thirds of a page in the book to describe it, but tell if we're going to talk about beliefs for the rest of our time together, something that is harder to get our hands on and harder to see, like we can see some other sorts of metrics.

00:09:27:11 - 00:09:33:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. How would you define or describe it for us so we can have a mental handle on it as we move through?

00:09:33:12 - 00:09:59:21
Muriel Wilkins
Absolutely. And you and I are the same. Kevin. I'm somebody said to me yesterday, they said, I'm noticing you're very nuanced with your words. And I said, yes, absolutely. Because we make meaning from words and it allows us to all get on the same page. So when I talk about beliefs, what we are referring to are the assumptions we make about ourselves, about others, about the situation or context that we're in or that surrounds us.

00:10:00:02 - 00:10:23:07
Muriel Wilkins
So they are assumptions. They are stories. Why do I call them stories? Because they are not necessarily true. They could be. They are the interpretation of those things that are in front of us again, myself, the other, and the situation. And the fact of the matter is that there are different interpretations to any given situation. And so beliefs are just that.

00:10:23:07 - 00:10:43:16
Muriel Wilkins
Now, the beauty in that is that it means that beliefs are malleable. They can change. They are, as I shared with my daughter, who's a young adult now, but when she was younger, I told her, I said, you are the sky, the beliefs or the clouds, right? You can stay as a person, but your beliefs can change. Isn't that cool?

00:10:43:16 - 00:10:54:16
Muriel Wilkins
You have an opportunity every single day to choose how you think about something. And this is not woo woo talk and probably about the least woo person you will ever meet out there. There is research that suggests, okay.

00:10:54:16 - 00:11:00:00
Kevin Eikenberry
You wrote a book about beliefs. I don't I'm not sure I can quite by that, but I ha ha ha ha ha ha.

00:11:00:02 - 00:11:16:18
Muriel Wilkins
I read that. Do you know, it's so funny, Kevin, because I think, like, I resisted this work for a long time. A long time. It's not like when I started off as a coach, I was like, yep, this is it. It took me about ten years in and. And the reason why it took me ten years and it's I had to catch up.

00:11:16:20 - 00:11:33:14
Muriel Wilkins
I had to do my own work. Right to, to recognize the impact it had on me. And then I realized, oh my gosh, it's the same impact on others. But it's also science backed. Like, I'm not a fan of just saying, oh, this is this is Muriel on a soapbox ever. It is. There is research that backs it up.

00:11:33:14 - 00:11:56:08
Muriel Wilkins
You look at Carol Dweck s work. You look at, Ellen Langer and Alia Crumb's work. There's research that backs up how much. It's not just what you do, it's what you think about what you do. That also has a consequential, impact on any outcomes that you're looking to derive. So, you know that that's where I get really excited about the power of whatever you want to call them.

00:11:56:08 - 00:12:04:04
Muriel Wilkins
Mindset, beliefs, story, narrative assumptions. You choose, over. But the power of it. Exactly.

00:12:04:06 - 00:12:24:18
Kevin Eikenberry
The thing that I love, you mentioned Carol Dweck work, which is awesome. Of course. Here's the thing I like about this. And, I mean, she's not trying to do exactly the same thing that you have tried to do here. But what I like about this. So anyone who's watching or listening and knows a Carol Dweck work, you know, it's higher level.

00:12:24:18 - 00:12:29:07
Kevin Eikenberry
This is like we're going to get into rolling up our sleeves here and it's not like what.

00:12:29:07 - 00:12:30:22
Muriel Wilkins
Are which I love. That's what I'm about.

00:12:31:01 - 00:12:45:08
Kevin Eikenberry
And so we're going to get into that, we're gonna get to these blockers in a second. But before we get into any of them, I want to make an observation. I want you can come in on if you work with senior executives. I work with leaders at all levels. And we have done because of some of our work over the years.

00:12:45:08 - 00:13:01:22
Kevin Eikenberry
We do we do have done lots and lots of work with, new and frontline leaders. And I can tell you that the reason these beliefs are blocking senior leaders is because they had these beliefs from when they first became a leader.

00:13:02:00 - 00:13:26:01
Muriel Wilkins
100%, 100%. This is why, again, going back to the importance of language, you never see me in my writing or verbally say that any of these beliefs are good or bad because they aren't. They are. They have consequences. They have. Everything has consequences. I mean, I raise my K if you ask my kids, what's one thing that Mommy and daddy have said your whole life?

00:13:26:07 - 00:13:49:00
Muriel Wilkins
They said, there's a consequence to every action, right? You choose. And so if the belief leads to the action, which I know we're going to get to, then there's a consequence to every belief as well. But the point is that they're not good or bad. They have helped you. You wouldn't hang on to them so, tightly if they didn't help you at some point in your life, in your career, whatever it might be.

00:13:49:04 - 00:13:52:12
Muriel Wilkins
The question is, is it helping you in the circumstance that you're in now?

00:13:52:15 - 00:14:22:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And I think that's the big difference because, right, we talk about moving and I know that we've got we've got people watching or listening who are at all levels and all stages of their leadership. Right. And I think that what you just said is, is perfect. It's perfectly apt because, all of these beliefs likely served you greatly as an individual contributor, as an expert, as.

00:14:22:04 - 00:14:22:20
Muriel Wilkins
Even before.

00:14:23:01 - 00:14:50:17
Kevin Eikenberry
They weren't necessary and before, but they're not necessarily, in all cases, serving you now. So with that as preamble, let's talk about there are seven. We will not be able to dive deeply into all seven. So this is what I often do. And I wasn't planning to do this until right now. But rather than just going through all seven because everybody, you're going to want a copy of this book, Leadership Unlocked breakthrough the beliefs that Limit your potential.

00:14:50:19 - 00:15:10:13
Kevin Eikenberry
You're going to want to copy. So, you know, as soon as this is over, go to Amazon. If you're watching this on if you're listening to us on the podcast, the link will be in the show notes. So we won't get to all of them. But let's which is one maybe that you've coached that people on a lot lately or that is just at the top of your mind right now.

00:15:10:13 - 00:15:13:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Just where do you want to start?

00:15:13:05 - 00:15:31:07
Muriel Wilkins
You know, they're all they are all equal opportunity. But you know what we'll start with? We'll start with me, okay, I will I shared the story around how I got into this line of work and why, you know, I or not. Why? But that I was sort of having issues with folks that I needed to work through.

00:15:31:09 - 00:16:00:21
Muriel Wilkins
And if I look back and I, and I share, you know, the details of this in my book, the belief that was driving me at that time, that was ineffective, that had worked for me for so long, but was getting in my way at that point in time at the level at which I was leading and given what my mandate was, was disbelief of I know I'm right, I know I'm right, which can also sound like I know what we have to do.

00:16:00:23 - 00:16:26:02
Muriel Wilkins
I know what the answer is. I know what's coming and what the solution is and the way that it manifested itself, because it was driving me unconsciously. It was just like the engine that was, you know, propelling the car forward. I would be in meetings and other folks would come up with ideas and I'd be like, yeah, we like, that's not what we're doing, right?

00:16:26:03 - 00:16:34:20
Muriel Wilkins
I would interrupt, I would go over their heads like my peers weren't getting it. So who would I go to? My boss, the CEO. I would, you know, I.

00:16:34:23 - 00:16:36:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Let them you would, but then. Right.

00:16:36:15 - 00:16:55:06
Muriel Wilkins
I mean, I would be the person in the meeting where the, you know, people start talking and, you know, I'm like, yep. Got it, got it. Yep yep yep. Got it, got it. Because I did I actually did understand. And you know what's funny Kevin, is a lot of people will say, well the solution is, you know, maybe if you listened you would come up with different answers or better answers.

00:16:55:06 - 00:17:18:21
Muriel Wilkins
My experience has been that the folks who are who suffer from this belief actually have this uncanny ability of seeing around corners. It is a strength of theirs to understand, assess the situation really quickly. Come up with what the answer is. The issue is that what they don't understand is that part of their mandate now and part of what will make them successful now is not just I know I'm right.

00:17:19:01 - 00:17:31:02
Muriel Wilkins
It's I know I'm right. I have an answer and I need everyone else to come along and also buy into this answer. And if they don't do that, they leave everyone behind.

00:17:31:04 - 00:17:49:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And often the group has the answer to exactly what you lean into. I've already got it, got it, got it, got it. They never have a chance. And there's the chances, the ability, the willingness of them to really, truly buy into and really, truly be a part of it. Be committed, which is a word I like better than buy in.

00:17:49:10 - 00:17:52:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. Is much reduced.

00:17:52:12 - 00:18:11:08
Muriel Wilkins
That's right, that's right. But if you think about, you know, one could ask, well, Muriel, why don't you, you know, why didn't you notice that in the situation? Because up until then, I had been rewarded ever since I was a little kid. Ever since I went to school, you know, look, I learned very early on at school that by having the right answer, I would be deemed valuable.

00:18:11:12 - 00:18:24:14
Muriel Wilkins
I would be deemed worthy. So what do you think I was going to do? Show up with the wrong answer when I started my jobs. All my bosses love that I would know the answer before they even had the question right?

00:18:24:15 - 00:18:26:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And so why would I want to let go?

00:18:26:16 - 00:18:48:00
Muriel Wilkins
Why would I want to let go of that when it worked so well? So and and here's my my thing. Kevin, this is not about getting rid of that belief. It's not even about letting go of it. It's the ability to put it to the side momentarily so that you can choose from other beliefs that you have. So a lot of people think, oh my God, I've got to change who I am or how I think, no you don't.

00:18:48:05 - 00:19:03:05
Muriel Wilkins
You just need to expand how you think. You need to expand your set of beliefs. So that you then actually have what I consider true agency, which is a choice in how you respond, starting with the choice and how you think about that particular situation.

00:19:03:07 - 00:19:23:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And so let's take him I want to I'm glad you picked this one. Because I want to talk about two other things here. And the first one is this sometimes it's about the big things and I know I'm right. But like in our relationships and including our relationships as leaders, sometimes we may know we're right, but we don't need to say it.

00:19:23:22 - 00:19:24:09
Muriel Wilkins
That's right.

00:19:24:10 - 00:19:54:08
Kevin Eikenberry
And sometimes we're right. Because, listen, there's there's many times there's more than one right answer. There's more. There's more than one value. Useful, appropriate answer. And the the end game of I know I'm Right is that it's black and white and I'm trying to win. So one of the things that I've learned for myself around this is and I don't do it as well as I should, but just in regular conversation, like just let it go.

00:19:54:10 - 00:19:55:18
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah. Just yeah.

00:19:55:20 - 00:19:56:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:19:56:06 - 00:19:58:09
Muriel Wilkins
Just being able to have, you know, sorry.

00:19:58:09 - 00:19:59:08
Kevin Eikenberry
God, no, please.

00:19:59:13 - 00:20:16:15
Muriel Wilkins
It's being able to have the discernment of one that works in one that doesn't. Because again, it's not to say that, you know, all of a sudden you need to just be quiet and never advocate your point. No. But as I you know, what tends to be on repeat with a lot of my clients who are like, this is like, pick your battles and what is the goal?

00:20:16:17 - 00:20:45:10
Muriel Wilkins
What is the outcome that you're driving to is the outcome that you're driving to is to prove your point at all costs. If that's the case, then go ahead my friend. If that is not, if you recognize that no. Now the goal as a leader is not only do I have to drive to a conclusion then, but I also need or and I also need to manage stakeholders and cultivate relationship and not feel like people are outside of the room.

00:20:45:12 - 00:20:50:07
Muriel Wilkins
Then I have to work it differently, which means I need to think about it differently.

00:20:50:09 - 00:21:17:19
Kevin Eikenberry
100%. So and one more thing on this, and I mentioned it when I very briefly mentioned in the, in the opening about, my new book, Flexible Leadership. But one of the subtitle is Navigate Uncertainty. Right. And our world is more uncertain than ever. So how do how do you put that I think fact right together with this need or this belief that I know I'm right.

00:21:17:21 - 00:21:25:20
Kevin Eikenberry
I have a thought about how these two need to be juxtaposed. Yeah, because it's another way place where this I think can get in our way. So what would you say?

00:21:25:20 - 00:21:49:10
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah. I mean, so I'm going to take it up a level. Okay. For us to really dig into this, underlying any of these beliefs, when we hold on to them, even though they're not being productive for us, underlying it is that we're trying to satiate one or 2 or 3 of three universal needs that we all have as humans, right?

00:21:49:12 - 00:22:16:03
Muriel Wilkins
We all have the need to feel safe. We all have the need to feel connected. We all have the need to feel worthy or valued. And so when you think about the context, feeling uncertain, okay, what do we jump to? I want to feel safe. That supersedes the need of feeling connected. And and perhaps it's also the need to feel worthy because that makes us feel in control.

00:22:16:03 - 00:22:37:18
Muriel Wilkins
At the end of the day, it's all about control, right? When it comes from in in a healthy place. And so this need to feel safe is if we can get to a conclusion, if we can get to closure as quickly as possible. This is the underlying narrative. If I know I'm right, if we can get to an answer as soon as possible, we can then take action quickly and then everything will be okay.

00:22:37:20 - 00:22:39:12
Muriel Wilkins
Supposedly.

00:22:39:14 - 00:22:44:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Which which leads us to another one of the blockers.

00:22:44:06 - 00:22:44:21
Muriel Wilkins
I need to get.

00:22:44:21 - 00:22:47:10
Kevin Eikenberry
It done now.

00:22:47:12 - 00:23:08:15
Muriel Wilkins
And these are all very close cousins, you know, I'm like, they're all a little happy family working together. You got to just pick which one is causing the most damage at a specific time and work on that one. But the I need to get done now. You know, what's interesting about this one is it actually runs so counter to what this belief is trying to drive, to which is a level of productivity.

00:23:08:17 - 00:23:15:00
Muriel Wilkins
When you when you really drill down to it, it actually ends up creating counter productivity. It creates a toxic productivity.

00:23:15:02 - 00:23:19:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Because it's focused on busy. It's. That's right I'm busy.

00:23:19:02 - 00:23:39:23
Muriel Wilkins
That's right, that's right. You end up you know, it's what often causes burnout. Not maybe not for yourself. Although over the long run it will, but certainly for your teams, and the rest of the organization, it creates a level of learned helplessness in others because they know that, you know, you will step in at some point to get it done now.

00:23:40:01 - 00:24:02:08
Muriel Wilkins
And so they sort of, you know, put their hands up in the air. And again, this is not to say that all of a sudden you should take a stance that you know, that if everything can just take its time and we're going to be very, you know, blasé about things, that's not it at all. It's about recognizing, well, what actually requires a level of urgency and what actually requires it to need to be done.

00:24:02:08 - 00:24:25:15
Muriel Wilkins
Right. So the the antithesis to that is an ability to prioritize. So when somebody says when I hear, for example, in a 360 feedback that my client is not prioritizing, we can't go straight to all of a sudden you just need to prioritize, or they're feeling overwhelmed by their calendar. We can't just go straight to, well, let's look at your outlook outlook, calendar and highlight it and change things around because they're going to end up right back where they are.

00:24:25:15 - 00:24:42:20
Muriel Wilkins
We got to understand, well, how did you get here to the first place. And and there's a couple of things that can lead to that. But one of them clearly is, you know, it just feels like everything needs to be done right now. I had a client, and I talk about him in the book where his training had come from.

00:24:43:02 - 00:25:11:00
Muriel Wilkins
He was an emergency responder, and and he took the mindset, which actually is really critical as an emergency responder. Right. Like, you want to respond now, you don't want to wait, you know, but he applied that for everything. And while it was serving him well, when he had to respond to these critical life or death emergencies, it certainly wasn't, serving him well when it was about, you know, planning the holiday party.

00:25:11:00 - 00:25:13:12
Muriel Wilkins
That, by the way, wasn't going to happen until six months from now.

00:25:13:12 - 00:25:39:19
Kevin Eikenberry
100%. Again, you said it. They're all connected, and I would love to unpack all of them. But there's one other one that that I think, Leaders carry. Many leaders really carry. I mean, they carry all of these. But I want you to talk about one more that I think is a really heavy load that leaders carry.

00:25:39:19 - 00:25:44:10
Kevin Eikenberry
I see it in my coaching. I see it in the work that we do. And it's this one right here.

00:25:44:12 - 00:25:45:06
Muriel Wilkins
I can't make a mistake.

00:25:45:06 - 00:26:03:07
Kevin Eikenberry
I can't make a mistake, I can't I not only do I, not only do I do, I do I know I'm right, but I feel like I have to, like I have to be like, if I'm not, then I'm letting everybody down. Yeah. Hurting myself, including me, including the. Yeah, including the customer. Like, I can't make a mistake.

00:26:03:12 - 00:26:05:22
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's not human.

00:26:06:00 - 00:26:25:19
Muriel Wilkins
And you, you hit the nail on the head, Kevin. We say if I make a mistake, I let everybody down. And so what does it. What is that grounded in? It's grounded in that need to feel connection. And so I'm not I'm not a therapist. And I draw a very strict line between executive coaching and therapy. Very strict if you follow any of my work you will see me on the soapbox about that.

00:26:25:21 - 00:26:44:11
Muriel Wilkins
So this is not about unpacking. Well, why did you get to this belief or let's heal what happened back when you were, you know, six, seven, eight, 15 or whatnot that led to this? That's not about that. That's a different line of work. But what we can do is understand that it's showing up today and some and it is potentially getting in your way today.

00:26:44:13 - 00:27:02:23
Muriel Wilkins
And so the I can't make a mistake at the end of the day, makes people hold back because they're concerned that if they make a mistake, it's going to sever them from everything, which there might be some things where. Yes. Right. Yes. If you make that mistake, it could. And there are other things where that's not the case.

00:27:02:23 - 00:27:25:04
Muriel Wilkins
So again, let's not use it as this universal rule. I think the other thing is it also is grounded in this need to feel safe. Folks who have this belief of, I can't make a mistake somehow believe that if they make a mistake, they do not have the capacity to recover from it. And so they do everything in their power to mitigate any potential mistake from happening.

00:27:25:04 - 00:27:43:21
Muriel Wilkins
Because by God, they don't want to feel that shoe dropping. So let me not make the shoe drop, right? I remember my, partner who I talk a lot about in the book, because he has these wisdoms that he just pops. He said, you know, and it was in a parenting context, where I was, I was definitely like, I can't make a mistake with these kids.

00:27:43:21 - 00:28:06:21
Muriel Wilkins
I can't make a mistake with these kids, but I don't, because it'll ruin the rest of their life. Right. And he said, you know, Muriel, he said, I look at you every day and you are like, doing everything in your power to keep the waves from crashing against the cliff. And he said, guess what? They're going to crash.

00:28:06:23 - 00:28:22:12
Muriel Wilkins
And I just remember that, Kevin, because basically it was like, let as you said, let it go stand in the way when it's huge. Right? But there is something you're going to it's okay. They're going to be able to get back up and you've got to teach them how to get back up. And I see this translating where.

00:28:22:12 - 00:28:36:02
Kevin Eikenberry
We need them to learn how to do that. Exactly. Thing I see with this one is that people say, people say, well, I can't make a mistake. I've got to I've got to get it right. I've got to get it right. What do you mean? Said do you, do you expect that of your team? And there are some that do, but most say no.

00:28:36:03 - 00:28:39:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Like mistakes are a way to grow. Yeah. Why don't you see that for yourself?

00:28:40:00 - 00:28:46:14
Muriel Wilkins
That's right. But where I see it, most detrimental, quite frankly, is when, you know, they set the same standards on their teams.

00:28:46:18 - 00:28:48:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, that is important.

00:28:48:03 - 00:28:59:17
Muriel Wilkins
And it is super counterproductive because what I find there is then the teams are afraid to even share anything with the leader because what if it's wrong?

00:28:59:18 - 00:29:19:18
Kevin Eikenberry
I tell leaders often if, when was the last time you heard your team tell you about a mistake? And they say, I don't remember when I said one of a couple things is happening. They're making him and not telling you, which isn't good and means they'll get repeated by other people. Or secondly, they're playing it so safe that you can't move.

00:29:19:20 - 00:29:23:11
Kevin Eikenberry
You can't go. That's right. You can't go forward. We can't innovate. We can't change. We can adapt.

00:29:23:13 - 00:29:41:20
Muriel Wilkins
Exactly. So this is where, you know, quite frankly, for me, I'm just about like the math math thing. You know, if you tell me that you're okay with no innovation, you're okay with folks not being transparent. You're okay. Then keep doing what you're doing. I don't I will sleep very well at night. But if what you're coming to coaching with.

00:29:41:20 - 00:30:08:12
Muriel Wilkins
Because by the way, nobody comes to coaching and says, you know what, neural? I really need to work on this belief that I have that never happens. What they kind of say, I want my team to be able to innovate. I want them to be able to be autonomous and to take risks. Okay. So is the way that you're behaving, which, by the way, is driven by the belief that you hold and the mantra that you hold for yourself and for them is that aligned with what you want to see being cultivated in your team.

00:30:08:12 - 00:30:15:22
Muriel Wilkins
And when they do that, and I literally say it's like, the math is not math, right? That's when they're like, okay.

00:30:16:00 - 00:30:34:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Just when you didn't think you'd have, you thought you could go all through an episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast without math. And there was the math. So we have to spend a minute here because we have to get to okay, we didn't get through all the beliefs. I told people, I told everybody we weren't going to.

00:30:34:15 - 00:30:51:09
Kevin Eikenberry
But take a minute. There's a whole lot that you talk about about, the steps for unblocking. Yeah. We can't unpack all of those. So I ask you to just talk about one thing because you've hinted at it. So let's say a little bit more about it. And that is reframing the belief.

00:30:51:15 - 00:31:15:14
Muriel Wilkins
Yeah. Because that's where the magic happens. Right. And yes, I do go through the process in the book. There's a couple of steps you want to take beforehand, but the reframing your belief is what gives you a choice. So the reframing, the belief is what would be the belief that I would need to pick up now that I need to hold now, that would actually increase the probability that I would act in the way that would lead to the outcomes that I desire.

00:31:15:16 - 00:31:30:00
Muriel Wilkins
And so it's not, again, you know, letting go of the other one or getting rid of the other one is just reframing so that it's like picking up another, golf club. There's a reason why you have a number of golf clubs in that bag, okay? You're not taking.

00:31:30:03 - 00:31:31:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Any of them very well.

00:31:31:08 - 00:31:49:01
Muriel Wilkins
I can use like 3 or 4. That's about it. That's enough. At least I have choice. Right. And and so it is about, reframing and then trying it out. Trying it out. And the process that I work through with my clients is sometimes it's let's look at what you would need to do. Okay. Let's look at the outcome that you desire.

00:31:49:02 - 00:32:07:04
Muriel Wilkins
What would you need to do to get to that outcome? What would you need to believe to be able to do that sustainably? Okay. And then they they're willing to go try it and we see if it works. If it doesn't work, they come back and we we continue to massage it. It's not a there's no end game here.

00:32:07:06 - 00:32:19:14
Muriel Wilkins
The point is to just be in that process as much as possible and try to course correct as quickly as you can so that you can, you know, really sort of maximize the potential that you have.

00:32:19:16 - 00:32:42:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Which means we have to be willing and able to be present and conscious. Right? Because beliefs are in our subconscious. They're they're they're auto response. We're we're moving forward, acting based on them in automatic ways. So we have to be able and willing to step back. This book will help all of you do that. It will help you think about that for others.

00:32:42:08 - 00:32:59:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And it's a book that you all need. Let me just tell you that right now, and I'll hold it up again. We'll talk about before we're done. But I have a question. Is there is there anything else that you wish I would have asked that I didn't?

00:32:59:17 - 00:33:21:08
Muriel Wilkins
Goodness, I think maybe, a question that's interesting to talk about is what does this? Because we talk a lot. I talk a lot about individuals. Right. And I work at an individual level. But what does that look like at a collective level? Like what's the impact at an organizational level when people do this work? That's the question.

00:33:21:13 - 00:33:47:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, so if, if at as a leader of a team or whatever level your, your beliefs lead to, your actions and your actions will have impact on the team, on the culture, on the team. I'll, as we've talked about throughout. Right? So if we're able and willing to become more flexible, if we're willing and able to reframe those beliefs, it will start to change.

00:33:47:06 - 00:33:55:04
Kevin Eikenberry
It will start to change the way our teams operate as well. Right. There's the ripples. Apply both for both situations. Right.

00:33:55:04 - 00:34:18:13
Muriel Wilkins
Exactly. I mean, I think, you know, we started off the conversation with you saying so much is done around skill building in teams and one of the biggest skills that people are really that's really popular right now is getting managers to know how to coach. Well, one of the premises of this is like, you know what? If you really want to learn how to coach, start with yourself, build your own capacity to coach yourself first rather than just focusing on how you coach others.

00:34:18:18 - 00:34:39:02
Muriel Wilkins
So that's number one, I think. Secondly, you know, so much is around, you know, one of the, one of the agendas that clients come to a lot to my coaching meetings is around how to change culture in their organization or on their team. And, you know, what is culture? Culture is a set of collective beliefs, okay. That's all it is.

00:34:39:04 - 00:35:00:10
Muriel Wilkins
And so how are we embarking on these culture change initiatives? And we're doing the training and we're hanging up the posters and we're doing the surveys and we're doing this and that. And yet we haven't really taken a beat to say, what are the beliefs that we're currently operating under collectively, not the ones that we have up on the wall, but really the unofficial ones, right.

00:35:00:10 - 00:35:23:09
Muriel Wilkins
Well, the real the real one, the unwritten rules. Right? That are that are now not helping us. They may have helped us at some point, but they're not helping us as an organization. They're not helping. They are not the beliefs that are going to get us to that five year strategic vision that we have. And so I'm not surprised when, you know, CEOs come to me, they're like, we're not getting to the five year, we're in year three and we're not getting there.

00:35:23:09 - 00:35:45:11
Muriel Wilkins
And I'm like, we got to go back to the beginning. What are the operating assumptions that you made? You would not build a budget model without really kicking the tire around the assumptions. So why aren't you doing that with your leadership team and with your organization, to make sure that everyone is aligned around the same assumptions around how we're going to meet that plan and how we're going to behave according to that plan.

00:35:45:13 - 00:36:08:01
Kevin Eikenberry
What are the actions that we will take day to day? So a culture is a is a collective set of beliefs, which leads to the way we do things around here. Yeah, right. Simple as that. So a couple of final questions. Yes. To change, turn the page to the final section of this conversation. The first one is you mentioned golf, but that may not be your answer.

00:36:08:02 - 00:36:09:18
Kevin Eikenberry
What do you do for fun?

00:36:09:19 - 00:36:30:02
Muriel Wilkins
Oh my goodness. You know, I'm in a place in my life where, I actually find just a lot of things fun. But one of the things that I do is I do enjoy working out, and I it's how you what you think about what you do. I think working out is fun. I believe it's fun, on most days.

00:36:30:02 - 00:36:49:02
Muriel Wilkins
And so I do do that. And I love hiking. So that's something else that I find a ton of fun to do. And my kids, you know, they're older now. They're young adults. But, I have a lot of fun when I'm around them because they force me to look at things differently, laugh about things that I typically would not laugh about.

00:36:49:04 - 00:36:50:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Or even know about.

00:36:50:11 - 00:36:53:14
Muriel Wilkins
Or know about. That's that's it. Right? That is.

00:36:53:16 - 00:36:59:03
Kevin Eikenberry
They give you a gift. You and I talked about words earlier. They give you some words that, yeah.

00:36:59:03 - 00:36:59:12
Muriel Wilkins
I mean.

00:36:59:18 - 00:37:01:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Or that have totally different.

00:37:01:03 - 00:37:25:02
Muriel Wilkins
You know. Right. And Kevin like I have approach parenting which I've been doing now for 18 something years with wonder and that allows me to have fun. It's because I approach it with curiosity and wonder. I look at what they do and I'm just like, okay, that's hilarious, right? And it's so interesting to me that there are other parents who are raising kids the same age and they're like, oh my God, that's so frustrating.

00:37:25:05 - 00:37:36:00
Muriel Wilkins
And there's no judgment on that. I think it is all based on the lens through which you look at it. I choose to look at it through wonder, and it creates a lot of joy and fun for me.

00:37:36:02 - 00:37:43:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Two more questions. Here's one you knew I was going to ask this one. The last one you're hoping I'm going to ask, but this one is what are you reading these days?

00:37:43:05 - 00:38:12:18
Muriel Wilkins
What am I reading? I am rereading, a book that I discovered about two years ago. I believe that that, really was helpful to me, but just opened my eyes at a different level. It's called Sovereign Love by Danny Logan. So it is a book about relationships and it actually takes a lot of what you and I have been talking about and transposes it on relationships.

00:38:12:20 - 00:38:13:14
Muriel Wilkins
And I think.

00:38:13:14 - 00:38:14:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Just a change of context.

00:38:14:22 - 00:38:40:19
Muriel Wilkins
It's a change of context. And I think what it does is if anybody is familiar with the classic, you know, another book, which is one of my favorites, Melody Bailey's Codependent No More, I feel like this is the new generation, that, as it relates to relationships. And while it is written from the perspective of, you know, the romantic love relationship, I read it from the perspective of how it can be applied in any relationship.

00:38:40:21 - 00:38:44:18
Muriel Wilkins
So that's, that's I'm rereading it right now.

00:38:44:20 - 00:39:01:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Excellent. Now, the question you wanted me to ask from the very beginning, where can people learn more about, you know, with you learn about the book. I'll hold the book up again. For those who are watching leadership unblock, breakthrough the beliefs that limit your potential. Where do you want to point people where they need to go?

00:39:01:14 - 00:39:24:02
Muriel Wilkins
Oh, thank you Kevin. So, you can find out all the things about what I'm up to at Muriel wilkins.com. I am on Instagram at coach Muriel Wilkins on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins. And, if you want to hear my voice, then, coaching real leaders is the podcast. And, of course, I talk a lot about myself and my clients in the book, leadership.

00:39:24:02 - 00:39:24:21
Muriel Wilkins


00:39:24:23 - 00:39:46:13
Kevin Eikenberry
For sure. So now, everybody, before we go and before I say goodbye to Muriel and to you, the question that I have to ask you. And it's the one I ask you every single episode. Now, what? What will you do now? And I'm not talking about buying a book, although I kind of hope you do that. I'm talking about what did you hear today?

00:39:46:13 - 00:40:05:18
Kevin Eikenberry
What did you observe today? What did you learn today? What did you write down? Even if it was only mentally for today, that you're going to act on it? Because until we act, it won't really matter. It's fine to say, oh, that was interesting. Oh, that was cool. Oh, I want to be able to remember what Muriel said.

00:40:05:20 - 00:40:26:11
Kevin Eikenberry
What I really hope that you will leave with is what am I going to do as a result of what I heard here? Because that is when you move closer to becoming the leader you were born to be, which is why the Remarkable Leadership Podcast exists. Muriel, thanks so much for being here. Such an absolute joy to spend time with you.

00:40:26:13 - 00:40:29:09
Muriel Wilkins
Absolutely. Thank you, Kevin and everybody.

00:40:29:13 - 00:40:53:15
Kevin Eikenberry
If you enjoyed this, I hope you did. If you didn't, as my dad used to say, it'd be your own fault. But no. But seriously, if you enjoyed this, please let somebody else know that they should listen to this episode or any episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Make sure you go to the show notes. If you're if you're listening later, because we'll point you to other episodes that might be connected to or you might find additionally a value because you enjoyed this one.

00:40:53:15 - 00:41:04:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So subscribe. Share. You know what to do. Do all those things wherever you're watching this and make sure you come back next week for another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.